EP 35 - Educators with or versus AI? Grammarly, Canvas AI, and Cyborg Pedagogy

In EP 35, John and Jason kick off fall 2025 with a conversation on how AI has been added to Grammarly and Canvas (whether we like it or not) and if the future of online learning will be formed by Cyborg pedagogy (and what that means). 

See complete notes and transcripts at www.onlinelearningpodcast.com

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Guest Bios:

• John Nash, PhD, is an associate professor of Educational Leadership at the University of Kentucky.
• Jason Johnston, PhD, is the Executive Director of Online Learning and Course Production at the University of Tennessee, Knoxville.

Resources:

• Canvas and OpenAI Partnership Press Release

Theme Music: Pumped by RoccoW is licensed under an Attribution-NonCommercial License.

Transcript:

We use a combination of computer-generated transcriptions and human editing. Please check with the recorded file before quoting anything. Please check with us if you have any questions or can help with any corrections!

EP 35 - Educators with or versus AI? Grammarly, Canvas AI, and Cyborg Pedagogy

Jason: But I'm looking forward to the, great list of potential guests that we have. I don't want to say any names yet 'cause nobody said yes yet.

John: No.

Jason: We don't have any yeses yet,

John: Yeah. Everybody's just

Jason: on the calendar yet

John: our list is amazing,

Jason: Yeah, we've got a great list.

John: no one's, we haven't sent them invitations yet.

Jason: Yeah. Well, yeah, I guess there's that too. So we haven't gotten any nos. That's a good part

John: No. No.

Jason: Yeah.

John: No. Yes.

I'm John Nash here with Jason Johnston.

Jason: Hey, John. Hey everyone. And this is Online Learning in the second half, the Online Learning podcast.

John: Yeah. We're doing this podcast to let you in on a conversation we've been having for now our third season kicking off about online education. I know. And so, hey, newsflash, online learning is still trying to be great. Some of it is, a lot of it still isn't quite there,

Jason. We're gonna keep talking about how to get it to the next stage.

How are we gonna do that?

Jason: That is a great question. How about we talk about today, what we're thinking about this fall as we head into this new school year and new season?

John: Yeah, absolutely. It's been an interesting summer. Little things popping up here and there. I notice Grammarly's doing some interesting things. Looks like Canvas is doing some things. A lot of stuff on the horizon.

Jason: . Yeah. And I would love to get into those, but I wanted to just kind of on the front end as we're kind of restarting the season, just even talk a little bit about, just a overall standpoint just for a moment here to talk about why we are doing this podcast. What do you think, John? Why are we doing this podcast again?

John: I think we're doing this podcast for a couple of reasons. I'll throw out the very selfish reason why I'm doing this podcast. This is my professional development activity. This keeps me honest in terms of thinking about what I believe is important about teaching and learning online.

It also gives me a chance to hear what you're thinking and I value your opinion and your philosophies a lot. And I think it also lets us share some ideas with like-minded people who are really interested in trying to make online teaching and learning better.

Jason: Yeah. That's good. I've got a check mark beside all those. Always enjoy the conversation with you, John. This is a big part of wanting to do these. I always look forward to them and And we realized when we started adding guests to our podcast, although we really enjoy our conversations, but it just adds another element of another voice. And that's one thing I really value about bringing different guests with different viewpoints in. As we get started this year, I hope to bring in some different viewpoints, not just people that would just agree with everything that we have to say, but people that maybe would challenge us and challenge some of our approaches to online learning and integrating technology and trying to humanize online learning, all of those things. I would love to get into conversations with people who really push us to think more deeply and more concretely as well. Like, how is this really gonna play out?

John: Yeah, I want to keep talking about that. I want to keep talking about as we're gonna probably chat about today as we think about the topics that I wanted to bring up things are getting a little more automated. The prevalence of AI across platforms is increasing and it's going to be a slippery slope, I think, for keeping humans in the loop.

I think even the, sort of the sales scripts that are coming out are saying, it's almost as if it's saying, " you don't need as much humanity in the loop; we got this now." And I don't think that's the case. And I think I want to, I want to be a part of the band that's playing the song set that says, Hey folks, we need to stick together on this.

We need to be humans in this loop and keep it all human centered.

Jason: Yeah, I agree. Yep. Well, those seem like perfect themes to keep going on here in our podcast. And as part of that you were talking a little bit to me the other day about these kind of new features that Grammarly is rolling out. And a lot of people, I use Grammarly. I used it on my I use it often. Sometimes it's a little frustrating 'cause it just pops up everywhere it seems like now that I have it, installed on my computer, but I find it very helpful. I don't pay for it right now. I'm not being paid by them, but I find it very helpful to just have this grammar help.

But it feels like they're moving into a new kind of AI era.

John: Yeah. And what's interesting is here, in my department we have a doctoral program. We have an online curriculum. We held the first meeting of the new cohort of doctoral students and we talked about, tools that they might find useful in their doctoral journey.

And we had some currently enrolled doctoral students, a couple of other professors. And Grammarly came up. And one of the new students asked " if I use Grammarly for like, changing my phrasing or things like that, is that gonna be considered cheating when in my new program with you?"

And and I said, and my colleague, professor, colleague also concurred that I asked students to use Grammarly before they turn in their material. Because, as a mentor in a scholarly process, I want to be able to think about the ideas that they are bringing forth, and not necessarily the mechanics and correcting the copy.

I want to jump right into the thinking. And so by running the typical Grammarly checker on subject verb agreement and clearing up things, that's fine. I like doing that. Now , I'm jumping into Grammarly and I'm seeing new features are popping up.

And so it's interesting to think about what are these new AI agents that they're sticking in there that go beyond just checking your grammar as the name of the app says it's "Grammarly," right? We want, " please turn in your stuff having been checked for grammar."

We like that 'cause we can get to the ideas. But what do we think about these new agents? I'm not so sure yet because they're, it's kind of interesting.

Jason: yeah. And it's a good question by the student. I'm glad you're having the conversation. Right. It was like, it was just over a year ago, there was a university of North Georgia student who was placed on academic probation, accused of using AI for for creating a paper. Whereas she said that she just used Grammarly for fixing and getting feedback on some of the grammar, right?

I think that we need to be thinking about what the features are as well as how we're having these conversations with students and where, where our limits are.

So, what all did you find out about Grammarly as you were digging into it?

Some of your thoughts.

John: So Grammarly has all these agents now and stuff we knew about before, a plagiarism checker and some, but they have a paraphraser now, a reader reactions agent,

A proof reader. Duh. That's why we use it.

Jason: Yes.

John: And AI grader.

And so the AI grader. " Revise. Revise your writing with purpose and see your score improve, get feedback based on your assignment rubric and instructor expectations so you can make changes that count."

" Estimate your grade, get early feedback. Revise with intention and submit confidently." So it's an agent that "estimates your score based on your assignment rubric and your instructor's grading style."

Oh boy. It "provides personalized feedback, allowing you to see how your writing aligns with the assignment requirements and make adjustments to improve your grade. Ideal for all types of written assignments."

" It's designed for students who want to predict how their work will land with their instructor and take control of their grades."

I mean, I guess, well, I mean, wouldn't it be nice if you just had a good relationship with your instructor?

Jason: That does feel ideal.

But at the same time, I mean, we've always . Encourage students to use like a tutor of some sort if they're struggling, right. To be

John: Yeah,

Jason: able to understand assignments and to help them achieve higher levels of learning and achievements in the classroom.

John: They've also thrown in an AI detector. So how ironic with the University of North Georgia student: will Grammarly detect itself being used and therefore go into some kind of a death loop? I don't know. I mean,

Jason: Or, like, when somebody is like supplying weapons to two sides of a war or something like that, right? So,

John: yes.

Jason: it kind of feels a little bit like they're work in both sides of the equation here.

John: I may have to experiment with this 'cause I wonder how it gets the student to... Look, i'll be honest. I mean, I do the best I can. You do too. We all have colleagues that aren't champions at being clear about what their standards are for assignments. Right. I wonder how the system interprets what the instructor expectations are.

Jason: Yeah. The positive things I see on that are helping a student really interpret and achieve more than they would've before, right? They've got this in-between spot maybe encouraging them to go back and revise and do better. The negative side I see is it almost feels like a gaming of the system, which is you're using the elements of the assignment to tweak and try to predict what it is your professor wants at the same time, isn't getting good grades always kind of a gaming of the system and trying to just figure out the rules of the game are, and then making it happen.

John: It's interesting on the splash page, they have for this feature the highlights for the "instructor insights feature" where they say it'll predict your instructors feedback. They have a little screen grab. For instance, this is a a geological essay with, and the professor's name is Professor Moon.

And the little AI grader window pops up and says, " based on your writing, professor Moon may say," and then it has a little fake reply from Professor Moon and then what? And some bullets on what Professor Moon emphasizes. And then at the bottom it says, "based on her rate, my professor's profile strong essays link process to consequence."

So there, they're going into Rate My Professor, because you, in a previous screen, you've entered in the course name, course number, and professor name at the institution.

Jason (2): So it's a little alarming, but do you think that this would decrease learning in if you thought about this, like if one of your students had a Dr. Nash bought that they were able to chat with before they submitted something, do you think it's gonna decrease their learning? I.

John: I think if they had a Nash bot that I crafted, I think it would improve their learning because they would have access to things I would typically say I'm having looked at this very lightly and based on only their promotional materials, I'm somewhat dubious as to whether or not you can really tailor something to Professor Nash based upon what Grammarly thinks I'm like,

Jason: Right.

John: And I mean, I've never looked at my Rate My Professor page.

Jason: Good.

John: And I don't intend to.

Jason: Don't want you to get a big head, you're

John: I don't think,

rated

Jason: through the roof.

John: well, and my classes are so small and mostly been graduate school, so like I'm, yeah. I'm not too worried about it. Having said that, I'm wondering why we even need this feature.

Because I think there's good advice that Grammarly gives, whether or not they know what the professor, who the professor is and what their standards are. I mean, like subject verb agreement is a good idea. Being clear about your topic sentence and then what you're covering and, depth of analysis.

These are all things you can pick up on without having to know what the professor's name is.

Jason: Yeah, and I think all those could be good additions to an online class, right? For students to be kind of guided along, perhaps better alignment with, expected outcomes for the students.

I think the other part I get concerned about is that, like you mentioned, a little tongue in cheek, just, isn't this a great opportunity to get to know the professor? I do think that it reduces the amount of student contact and I think ideally in this kind of situation if a student had questions, they'd be able to go to the professor. The professor could respond in a timely manner. These were all ideals. And the student then would be able to respond and do the assignment in a way as expected.

And maybe the professor would give some feedback as well. And every one of those interactions, the professor also gets to know that student a little bit more, gets to know their own class a little bit more. about what is working, what they need to tweak a little bit. I believe, anyways, and maybe again, this is an ideal, but in a good online class, there's always a kind of a collaborative change that is happening

As the students get to know the professor can kind of guide the students in a better way throughout that class.

John: Yeah. So if you think about what Michelle Miller talks about with "same side pedagogy," by going off and having the fake Professor Nash inside Grammarly grade papers I'm completely missing out on the growth of my student.

This is all now happening in secret. So now I get a paper that is maybe well improved from where they started because they talked to fake Professor Nash inside Grammarly.

Jason: Right.

John: But I have no idea. So then I look at it and I say, oh, this is a terrific student. They did a great job. They get an A and then off they go.

I never knew any of the struggle they had --the productive struggle. We didn't get to build in public. I think that's part of it. So that's what a great class does, is you're building in public together. Students are working with each other. Yeah, I think that's part of the community that gets missed here.

It's almost like, " go off and build in secret and get an A and not deal with the toil of talking to your professor and getting their feedback."

Jason: Right. The trouble because it's a lot of trouble sometimes. It's true.

John: It is trouble.

Jason: Yeah. But I

John: Why not?

Jason: struggle aspect. Yeah.

John: I mean, the language that they use here is like "Professor Moon may say, so like why deal with what I have to say when you can talk to an AI bot that will tell you what I might say?"

Jason: Right.

John: Fabulous. Much better.

Jason: Yep. Yeah. Now taking maybe Grammarly side a little bit. As we talk to the folks as Khan Academy as well, there's this idea around this tutor bot that's just always available,

John: Right.

Jason: It could pop up anytime of the day. Our asynchronous adult students, they're trying to get their homework done. At 11:45 PM it's due at midnight and , I'm not gonna be waiting around for that email at 11:45 PM Right. I'm well in bed at that point.

John: Yeah.

Jason (2): But perhaps the Dr. Nash bot could guide them in a way to be able to complete something that they otherwise could not based on their of timeframes. But as we build good pedagogy, I don't see the need, I don't see the need for Dr. Nash bot. You'll be glad to know because I've actually been in your classes before and I was glad to have the real Dr. Nash in those classes versus a Dr. Nash bot. And I found the real Dr. Nash to be very approachable and helpful and also something that was as continues to be place in my life in terms of just our opportunity to be able to talk, so,

John: Well, that's very kind. That's very kind. I think. I think, Grammarly obviously wants to sell this to students. They're not selling it to me. I mean, nowhere in here it appears as though there's a value proposition to the professor saying, Hey, you ought to get your students to use your fake you over here.

I don't teach classes that have teaching assistants, however, large lectures, others that might have TAs, there are sections for discussions and the students go to those. And that's a, the TAs are in theory, some kind of protege of the professor, right?

And so if I were privy to the conversations, and hopefully I am with my TA team about what they're having in their discussions, then I start to know that. So back to my point is that they're selling this to the students, but they're not selling this to professors saying, "Hey, this could be a kind of a TA for you if you incorporated into your curriculum the conversation with your students about what kind of conversation they're having with our agent that's faking you."

Also what, this is interesting. It's not really a intellectual property problem, but I mean, they are, they're asking you to put in, section number, course number, institution and professor name, and so they're theoretically channeling you That's a little presumptuous, I guess.

Jason: It is yeah, it's a little presumptuous. I wonder if we need to as teachers start to figure out what this means moving forward. You know how in Hollywood they, when do like full 3D bodies and face scans of actors and they sign agreements about where and when they can use this? Or if they, if something happens to them halfway through the movie, are they allowed to, take this likeness and what they're, what the the extension of the, that likeness would be?

We might need to do the same thing,

John: Or I might have to have something in my syllabus or an announcement saying, Grammarly's AI agent for AI grader does not represent my views, or may not represent my views. And so if you use it to try to predict your grade, you may be disappointed.

Jason: I do think this is going to continue to be a kind of a question, and certainly throughout this fall as we're talking to people about the way AI is just getting baked into so many things and it's just showing up as a feature.

John: Right?

Jason: thought about this. I haven't had a chance to test it out yet, but we don't have it enabled at University of Tennessee at this point. how at Instructor Con, the big Canvas conference that happened in July, they announced their partnership with OpenAI.

And so what we thought in our podcast maybe was this a year and a half ago, that we thought Khan Academy was gonna have a big partnership with Canvas. Instead, they're going right to the source. And so OpenAI is gonna have a big partnership with them and they're gonna include things like some ways in which AI can help the instructor guide outcomes within the courses. There's gonna be like a new assignment that is an AI guided driven assignment. This is just what I've seen from the previews. And somehow giving some sort of level of AI oversight on your grade book and to be able to give the instructor some feedback. Sounds like a lot of the things that Khan Academy was planning to do with their Khanmigo, in terms of being almost like a ai, tutor. Less of a tutor bot in this sense directly in contact with the students and more of a helpful assistant for the teachers is what I, at least I've been reading about it, that it seems like that's where they're gonna go.

John: Yeah. And the material I looked at it looks like it's gonna do a couple of things, not only on the instructional design side, but also on the workflow side, which I might actually welcome. And by that I mean. For instance, this summer, I, for the first time really dove into using canvas's mastery teaching features.

So, and how to structure all that. And and it's doable, but it's not trivial in terms of the clicks and the buttons and the windows you have to use and making sure you're using their terminology. And I could see where an AI agent would be helpful in just getting the workflows going if you knew already what kinds of instructional design approaches you wanted to use.

So I'm not relying on AI to write quiz questions for me based on my material or things like that. I'm trying to maintain control of that. But the kind of like the things that go on with the platform we use to edit this podcast, Descript, they have new AI features that let you go through quickly to get through workflow things that are like improving the sound but don't have to do with the content per se.

That's helpful.

Jason: Not the overlord the...

John: Right. They call, They call it an under Lord. Yeah. 'cause we are, we're, they're not gonna have us put up with tech overlords. That would be bad. But so I don't know what I think about the other parts. It makes me wonder, one of the people I thought would be interesting to have on our show would be is it Philippa Hardman who does the,

Who really thinks through the ways to leverage large language models for instructional design.

And I think, yeah, I don't know. Yeah. I'm always a little cynical about just letting AI run roughshod over, maybe roughshod's the wrong term, but running wild over my instructional design decisions. Because as you and I know, I mean there's just not enough instructional design support for all the faculty in all of the P 12 schools, community colleges, universities that we have.

And so there's always room for improving. But leaving it all as a decision to an AI bot is a little dangerous, I think.

Jason: Yeah, absolutely. It's one thing if we're using it as a very specific tool to do something and another, if we're just able to set it on autopilot, I don't think, as online teachers, we're interested in autopilot on our courses because we're partly here to really actually be a teacher for the students, nor at this point is the government interested in us just running those kind of courses. They've made that very clear with expectations around "regular and substantive interaction" and so on, right?

John: For folks who may not know what really we're talking about there the regular and substantive interaction, that's an important point.

Jason: Yeah and short is RSI, so you don't have to try to pronounce that whole thing, which I usually bungle. But the the idea is that they, what they don't want is for students specifically to be , getting government funding for taking correspondence courses. So in the olden days, correspondence courses were, you'd get a package in the mail, you would do all the stuff, and then you mail it back and you would get your certificate or whatever. regular interaction has to do with, and the, it's right in the name. They want regular interaction with the teacher. It could be in the form of feedback synchronous sessions. It could be asynchronous sessions though too, like just

One-on-one or with the group in terms of discussions. So, but it has to be regular. They can't just set and forget, but you should be interacting every week.

And then the substantive part is that it can't just be about the weather, it has to be about the content that they're supposed to be going over. So those interactions need to be about the content. Um They're not with that prescribing everything else that needs to happen inside a good course, but what they are is focusing on an aspect that sometimes we are missing in courses.

Western Governs University because they're more competency

Education. They had a big lawsuit from the government that got resolved a few years ago over this because there didn't seem to be enough teacher interaction, direct teacher interaction. so I can see how, it might seem great for a tech company like Grammarly to try to bridge this gap and maybe even their people in their programming team and their development team that believe they're doing good things. But it actually feels like another way in which it is not helping with our RSI when it comes to online education.

John: Are you hearing some concerns at your institution or other colleagues talking about the, there, there's some worry about how much AI is gonna get turned on inside Canvas?

Jason: I'm hearing that and I'm hearing that out also in the social media world a little bit from colleagues. There's some resistance to that as well. So, one of my hopes this fall. Is to talk to somebody that is circulating some letters of resistance. Somebody I've had a little bit of a interaction with online.

And that is trying to make it okay to say no to AI. So there's a sense in which that with all these particularly, and I have some of these concerns too, with these tech companies coming in, it almost feels like a an unavoidable future. "AI is here, it's coming, it's gonna be part of all we do, so we might as well just embrace it. And there's no need for resistance because it is here," to reference a nice old geeky, reference, it's kind of like the Borg, right? In Star Trek in some of a certain age may remember that. But resistance is futile and you're just gonna be, you're just gonna be brought into this new world where AI is part of everything including our education.

John: So, yeah, I mean, if you look at the, I'm looking at now at the Instructure press release on the, announcement between Instructure and OpenAI and this global partnership to "embed AI learning experiences in Canvas." And the the second big heading is how they're leading education toward the future.

And it's all this markets speak about how these are, ed tech and AI companies working side by side. I'm quoting now "to shape the future of education and respond to the rapid pace of technological change, focusing on where education is headed." And I guess we're all supposed to say at the end of that sentence, "oh, well thank goodness for you that you're working on this for me, because yeah, I was concerned."

Jason: Yes all the professors with decades of experience, thank you, OpenAI for showing us how to teach and leading us in this direction. So glad to hear that there's somebody that knows what they're doing around here.

John: Online learning in the second half of life is solved and saved. Yes.

Jason: At the same time. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and I think as part of this, something that we've keep coming back to again and again in our conversations, John, I think we're both, we're, I think it's fair to say this I hope you don't take offense to this. We're both kind of nerdy. We enjoy the new tech we like talking

John: Mm-hmm.

Jason: of such things and looking at both the tech and the processes and what people are adapting. What's changing and the new cool things? So from the beginning we've been kind of, think, you're the first person I heard about ChatGPT from, I think in a text.

And we were then

John: yeah.

Jason: that way a few years ago now. So on that side of things, like we're always kind of interested in and excited to see what's happening next and certainly as they can improve online courses and our lives. But at the same time holding it with some level of concern and reflection and hopefully critical thinking about at the end of the day, that we want good education for students.

We also, have some skepticism around these large capitalistic tech companies who we don't want to be driving our schools forward. There can be a great partner and great resource, but I don't want them, I'm not interested in being led by them into the future of education.

John: That's well said. I think because I was talking with a colleague about the similar topic, and I was I was a little stuck. You did that very eloquently. Because it seems as though I have this cognitive dissonance that I've been keeping at arm's length and I am trying not to now the matters of the half trillion dollar valuations of these private companies that are a for-profit model that are interested in making a product and not necessarily, improving the world, although they say they may want to, the massive amounts of energy that is being required.

The,

Jason: Right,

John: The capitalistic nature of the stock market related to the AI chip companies and where all of this is going.

Jason: Right.

John: it's it's just a reminder that there's a lot of different forces at play here, and that while day to day, I do gain value from using these tools to improve my little corner of the world, to make my students' lives better, is to achieve the goals of my institution to do my hobbies.

But it's all happening because of these other things that I've been keeping a little bit at arms length. And so there's a lot of competing values and activities and we want to be able to use the tools for good, but we don't want to be led or run by the Borg.

Jason: Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

John: And so I don't know what to do. I mean, I feel a little I'm waiting and I feel I'm calling myself a little two-faced. I'm trying to figure out how we all deal with that.

Jason: Yeah, and I really believe that the best way to lead forward is a little more within, like, is not from full resistance, but actually from trying to be part of what is happening and then trying to lead forward. And this is a few months away, so I, believe it or not, don't have my full presentation together yet. But this fall's OLC I'm gonna be talking about, my title is "At the End of the World Pedagogy will be Cyborg: Emotional Intelligence, Resistance, and the AI Enhanced Teacher" with this idea that technology can be both oppressive and liberatory. It's okay that that can happen at the same time too.

Because I've seen both sides of that with technology. Online learning is a great example of that, the access that it can bring, but also it can become yet another super structured dumping information on oppressive system. Right. and so just thinking about what this what this coexistence might look like in the future where we do have AI as part of all that we're doing, but it is it is something that ideally that we're still the brains in charge of the operation, right?

If you are getting what I'm saying about pedagogy being cyborg, is that kind of where you're at, John? Are you okay with pedagogy becoming cyborg and you being part of that?

John: Not fully, I don't think. I think if.

Jason: so it's only half.

John: Halfway. Yes. I guess, , maybe I don't want to embarrass myself by saying, I guess I don't understand what a cyborg is

Jason: Oh yeah.

John: and No, I just wrecked all of my sci-fi cred.

Jason: No, I think it's a good thing to clarify though. 'cause I think you do know what a cyborg is, but I think that I think that's a great question because I think cyborgs can be sorts of things depending on your sci-fi movie, right? Sometimes Cyborgs are much more like human-like. So if you think about like a Robocop kind of thing.

So they thought they were building just like a machine that would just take orders. But it really still had the heart of a man who cared. And so it kind of ran against their plans for that particular kind of cyborg. And I think that's a great touch point in terms of , what are we talking about here?

What are we comfortable with? Right. So,

John: Right. So,

Jason: Robocop, it's not the finest of cinematic expositions on the matter, but then you have others, like, Terminator is not a cyborg because Terminator is really all robot.

John: oh, okay. Well, what is, so Apple TV has the new show called Murderbot. Do you know, have you heard about this one? Yeah.

Jason: about it. I haven't watched it.

John: So it's a robot who has a heart maybe, I guess. And so he decides not to be a murderous bot. I don't know. But, and it doesn't seem like there are any good popular media examples that are any good here that don't involve killing.

Jason: Well, I think the concern that there's gonna be a full, taking over of the ai, there'll be no humanity left. Right? That is a

John: Right.

Jason: with

John: That is a concern.

Jason: and that is not cyborg. Cyborg is really a blending together of those worlds. And so that becomes somebody who not technically, we're not talking physically, we're talking more in terms of process, in terms of teaching, in terms of what it is that you do day to day. Becoming a bit of a guided helped, always human entity though with the technology coming alongside in a very helpful, natural kind of way.

John: I feel like that I do, I feel like, and so I haven't thought about that as Cyborg, but I do feel like as someone who's interested in increasing my capacity, because I see a vision that is. Beyond my reach without the co-design support of this technological tool.

That's where my head is at. So if that is

cyborg pedagogy I might agree.

Jason: Okay. Well, we can keep talking about it

And we'll see. We may be on slightly different spots, but but I'm also, I'm not talking about getting cybernetic implants or anything like that.

John: No,

Jason: all sorts of random sci-fi, like Johnny Mneonic or things like that,

John: right. No. Or the guy in Sweden who had implants put into his arm so he could Yeah. Scan doors or open

Jason: exactly.

John: yeah. Basically, yeah. Getting your university ID embedded under your skin so you could, yeah. No, thank you.

Jason: yeah. Not interested. I'm planning always to be fully human when it comes to the physical aspect, but I expect as we teach longer and longer that that our pedagogy will be more and more cyborg. A combination of both AI helped and the human.

John: I do see what you're saying. I think that is the case. Yes.

Jason: Yeah.

John: Yeah.

Jason: Okay. Well that's a, that's kind of a bit of a theme that I think I would like to continue to talk about. Maybe you can help me with my presentation. I still got a few months and maybe we will pull in a few guests and we can talk about this, but but I'm excited about getting to talk to some people.

I don't want to say any names yet 'cause nobody said yes yet.

John: No.

Jason: We don't have any yeses yet,

John: Yeah. Everybody's just

Jason: on the calendar yet

John: our list is amazing,

Jason: Yeah, we've got a great list.

John: no one's, we haven't sent them invitations yet.

Jason: Yeah. Well, yeah, I guess there's that too. So we haven't gotten any nos. That's a good part

John: No. No.

Jason: Yeah.

John: No. Yes.

Jason: But I'm looking forward to the,

great list of potential guests that we have. So I can't wait to get into it with you, John, and always enjoy chatting with you. Of course.

John: Always. Yeah,

Jason: forward to just more regular. regular and substantive interaction with you

John: that's right. Yes. We get an RSI certificate will be good to go. We will be approved. Yes, for RSI.

Jason: Our RSI will be high, I think this fall when it comes to the podcast.

John: Excellent. All right, well, until next time.

Jason: So next time. So check us out on the web onlinelearningpodcast.com. It's onlinelearningpodcast.com where you can see all the episodes and reach out if you need anything there or on LinkedIn. The links are there and the links from this show note as we think about resources as well. So, we hope to connect with you outside of this.

Thanks for listening.